DUST Search - [Request] Medium frame (basic/assault/logistics) changes

KAGEHOSHI Horned Wolf wrote:

[UPDATE]: Attention

This thread was created before the brick-tanked scout problem, but I strongly believe my proposed slot layout solution for mediums will make assaults viable again. The issue isn't just that assaults are underpowered, it is much more complex and messy. Read on, I will explain.

There are big problems with the medium frame slot layouts that need to be addressed. "Too long; didn't read" (TL;DR) version on post 2 (click here).

[Assault & logistics issues]

Slayer logi issue originates from the logis to tank more HP than their assault counterparts, allowing them to be more survivable killing platforms. This problem won't truly go away until the slots are handled correctly, just right now brick-tank scouts are bigger issue.

Logis sacrifice sidearms, mobility, & base HP in exchange for for 2-3 more equipment (equip) slots than their assault counterparts. That seems like a fair deal, but on top of the 2 or 3 more equip slots, there is some crazy weirdness with the slot layouts that leads to imbalance.

- At standard (STD) tier all logis (with the odd exception of the Amarr (Am) one) have inferior module (mod) slot layouts compared to the STD assault counterparts.
- Advanced (ADV) tier logis either get equal or superior mod slot layouts compared to their ADV assault counterparts.
- Prototype (PRO) tier logis all gain an extra low slot than their PRO assault counterpart, the caldari one also gains an extra high slot also.

Summary: logis underpowered (UP) at STD tier, balanced or overpowered (OP) at ADV, & all OP at PRO.

No reason for the Caldari (Cal) logi only having 2 equip at STD instead of 3; it isn't gaining anything extra compared to other STD logis or its assault counterpart for the sacrifice. The STD Cal logi is UP even compared to the other UP STD logis.

There is also the issue of the Am medium slot layouts. 1.8 has Am mediums shifting from hybrid tanking (equal shields & armor) to predominantly having armor; this requires a slot layout change of more low slots for effective armor tanking. Right now the progression of Am mediums is odd, they start with more high slots (2 at militia (MLT) & STD).

Am assault has less mod slots than other assaults. Yes it has a tiny 30 more base HP than the Caldari & Gallente assault, a small advantage already countered by being the slowest assault. It should be noted that the Am scout, Am sentinel, & Am commando also has more base HP compared to the other races' dropsuits of the same roles, yet these other Am suits aren't forced to give up a slot; neither should the Am assault since the extra HP is already balanced by the speed loss. This issue makes the Am assault suffer the most from the brick-tanked scout problem, since the Am scout has more mod slots at STD-ADV than the assault, & same mod slot count at PRO; this allows the Am scout to surpass the Am assault in HP, while being faster, having a 2nd equip, stealthier, etc.

[Basic medium frame issues]

Give basic frames a purpose, there is 36 STD-PRO basic frames; way too many suits in the game to have be completely useless; useless because they're inferior versions of the specialized suits (ex: assaults, scouts, etc), & they can't even be used as a way to save money since they cost the same as the specialized suits; there is no reason to use a basic frame after unlocking specialization. We should never have 36 items that are worthless. For more on the basic frame issue go here.

Basic mediums should be generalized middle-ground between the assault & logi, it would make the assault truly specialized by comparison instead of just being basic frames with bonuses added. It would also give players the ability to test-drive both assault & logi roles before specializing; right now you can test out the assault role with a basic medium, but can't with a logi role with their parent frame.

[Solution]

Part 1: assault & logi

Give the Cal logistics 3 equip slots at STD. Also 4 equip at PRO (reduce mod slot from 9 to 8 in exchange).

Give all assaults the same number of mod slots.

Equalize the mod slot layouts for assaults & logis of the same race & tier:

Assault & logi STD (high/low)
Am: 2/4
Ga: 2/4
Ca: 4/2 (+1 equip for logi)
Min: 3/3

Assault & logi ADV
Am: 2/5
Ga: 3/4
Ca: 5/2
Min: 4/3

Assault & logi PRO
Am: 3/5
Ga: 3/5
Ca: 5/3 (+1 equip for logi)
Min: 4/4

Part 2: basic medium frames
To fix the aforementioned issue, basic medium frames should have:

One more equip for a total of 2. Makes basics generalist between assault & logi.

1 less mod slot than their assault & logi counterparts; Tradeoff for more equip slots.

Basic medium MLT (high/low/equip)
Am: 2/2/2
Ga: 1/3/2
Ca: 3/1/2
Min: 2/1/2

Basic medium STD
Am: 2/3/2
Ga: 2/3/2
Ca: 3/2/2
Min: 3/2/2

Basic medium ADV
Am: 2/4/2
Ga: 2/4/2
Ca: 4/2/2
Min: 3/3/2

Basic medium PRO
Am: 3/4/2
Ga: 2/5/2
Ca: 5/2/2
Min: 4/3/2

Attention

Obviously PG/CPU should be tweaked Attention

Both assaults & logis have the same mod slot counts: 6 STD, 7 ADV, 8 PRO. Most logis did not get a mod slot nerf in this plan Attention

Related suit thread:


Author	Thread Statistics \| Show CCP posts - 3 post(s)
Sir Dukey SAM-MIK General Tso's Alliance 932	Posted - 2014.05.25 01:50:00 - [1] - Quote KAGEHOSHI Horned Wolf wrote: [UPDATE]: This thread was created before the brick-tanked scout problem, but I strongly believe my proposed slot layout solution for mediums will make assaults viable again. The issue isn't just that assaults are underpowered, it is much more complex and messy. Read on, I will explain. There are big problems with the medium frame slot layouts that need to be addressed. "Too long; didn't read" (TL;DR) version on post 2 (click here). [Assault & logistics issues] Slayer logi issue originates from the logis to tank more HP than their assault counterparts, allowing them to be more survivable killing platforms. This problem won't truly go away until the slots are handled correctly, just right now brick-tank scouts are bigger issue. Logis sacrifice sidearms, mobility, & base HP in exchange for for 2-3 more equipment (equip) slots than their assault counterparts. That seems like a fair deal, but on top of the 2 or 3 more equip slots, there is some crazy weirdness with the slot layouts that leads to imbalance. - At standard (STD) tier all logis (with the odd exception of the Amarr (Am) one) have inferior module (mod) slot layouts compared to the STD assault counterparts. - Advanced (ADV) tier logis either get equal or superior mod slot layouts compared to their ADV assault counterparts. - Prototype (PRO) tier logis all gain an extra low slot than their PRO assault counterpart, the caldari one also gains an extra high slot also. Summary: logis underpowered (UP) at STD tier, balanced or overpowered (OP) at ADV, & all OP at PRO. No reason for the Caldari (Cal) logi only having 2 equip at STD instead of 3; it isn't gaining anything extra compared to other STD logis or its assault counterpart for the sacrifice. The STD Cal logi is UP even compared to the other UP STD logis. There is also the issue of the Am medium slot layouts. 1.8 has Am mediums shifting from hybrid tanking (equal shields & armor) to predominantly having armor; this requires a slot layout change of more low slots for effective armor tanking. Right now the progression of Am mediums is odd, they start with more high slots (2 at militia (MLT) & STD). Am assault has less mod slots than other assaults. Yes it has a tiny 30 more base HP than the Caldari & Gallente assault, a small advantage already countered by being the slowest assault. It should be noted that the Am scout, Am sentinel, & Am commando also has more base HP compared to the other races' dropsuits of the same roles, yet these other Am suits aren't forced to give up a slot; neither should the Am assault since the extra HP is already balanced by the speed loss. This issue makes the Am assault suffer the most from the brick-tanked scout problem, since the Am scout has more mod slots at STD-ADV than the assault, & same mod slot count at PRO; this allows the Am scout to surpass the Am assault in HP, while being faster, having a 2nd equip, stealthier, etc. [Basic medium frame issues] Give basic frames a purpose, there is 36 STD-PRO basic frames; way too many suits in the game to have be completely useless; useless because they're inferior versions of the specialized suits (ex: assaults, scouts, etc), & they can't even be used as a way to save money since they cost the same as the specialized suits; there is no reason to use a basic frame after unlocking specialization. We should never have 36 items that are worthless. For more on the basic frame issue go here. Basic mediums should be generalized middle-ground between the assault & logi, it would make the assault truly specialized by comparison instead of just being basic frames with bonuses added. It would also give players the ability to test-drive both assault & logi roles before specializing; right now you can test out the assault role with a basic medium, but can't with a logi role with their parent frame. [Solution] Part 1: assault & logi Give the Cal logistics 3 equip slots at STD. Also 4 equip at PRO (reduce mod slot from 9 to 8 in exchange). Give all assaults the same number of mod slots. Equalize the mod slot layouts for assaults & logis of the same race & tier: Assault & logi STD (high/low) Am: 2/4 Ga: 2/4 Ca: 4/2 (+1 equip for logi) Min: 3/3 Assault & logi ADV Am: 2/5 Ga: 3/4 Ca: 5/2 Min: 4/3 Assault & logi PRO Am: 3/5 Ga: 3/5 Ca: 5/3 (+1 equip for logi) Min: 4/4 Part 2: basic medium frames To fix the aforementioned issue, basic medium frames should have: One more equip for a total of 2. Makes basics generalist between assault & logi. 1 less mod slot than their assault & logi counterparts; Tradeoff for more equip slots. Basic medium MLT (high/low/equip) Am: 2/2/2 Ga: 1/3/2 Ca: 3/1/2 Min: 2/1/2 Basic medium STD Am: 2/3/2 Ga: 2/3/2 Ca: 3/2/2 Min: 3/2/2 Basic medium ADV Am: 2/4/2 Ga: 2/4/2 Ca: 4/2/2 Min: 3/3/2 Basic medium PRO Am: 3/4/2 Ga: 2/5/2 Ca: 5/2/2 Min: 4/3/2 Obviously PG/CPU should be tweaked Both assaults & logis have the same mod slot counts: 6 STD, 7 ADV, 8 PRO. Most logis did not get a mod slot nerf in this plan Related suit thread: